(Just like we dream alone, even if we're in bed with someone else.). Bill Harford doesn't really showmuch recognition in th emorgue scene. I am normally the last guy in the, > world to criticize somebody for using big words. WebSynopsis. A powerful man realizes one night that his wife has had not one but myriad And the redeemer's pubic hair is also trimmed the same. >He also must have recognized> the voice, considering that her voice is somewhat deep and throaty with a> tinge of distinctive accent. When I did this, at first it seems like a similar, but different face, but then seeing one frame of the bathroom scene from a certain angle, it jumped out at me that it was the same person, but I could be wrong. I enjoy the > mystery entirely and will return to it over and over and could watch the > film again and again.>, >>>>>>>>>>>>> And if this firgure was Ziegler, why would he subsequently> send a naked masked woman over to Bill for his benefit? <<<<<<<<<<<. we talked about this about 8 years ago on this newsgroup . That is what she was" implying that her death> is of no consequence because of the low-status manner in which Ziegler> chooses to define her (an identity created and perpetuated by the> Zieglers of the world in the first place), earlier confirmed by his> desire to get the drugged-out Mandy out of his bathroom and house> ("Can we put some clothes on her and get her out of here?" >Even in the morgue he still might not have been positive, but he replays >her voice in his head while looking over the body. I think the voice would have rung a bell and > the Newspaper story rang a bell, with the name Amanda, and of course > seeing the corpse of someone who may have sacrificed her life for him--so > he was in shock. Again. - Zieglerwasn't concerned about her health, just eager to get rid of her so asto avoid any potential social embarrassment, "Bill, this is justbetween us"). Her pubic hair is trimmed just like Mandy's Pubic hair. I don't think there were any other dreams, although the redpool table scene always seemed the most dreamlike to me. Tom Cruise in the Masked Ball ritual scene from Stanley Kubrick's masterpiece Eyes Wide Shut with Jocelyn Pook's haunting score filling the temple. >>>>>>>>>>That would not be valuable or insightful speculation, but a totaldenial of most of what happens in the film (another variation of 'it'sall just a dream', everything being attributable to the delusions ofBill's mind, a denial of the world of social power, similar to sayingthat everything that happens to Jack Torrance in The Shining is all'in his mind'). How manypayments of $19.99 was that, again?-- "History is a lie agreed upon." ", http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIXuHaaz5iU, > This may indeed be the case, but within the diagetic space of the film. ME> Again. 2. So check out Mandy's Wink on the slab---it's very fast, but it is there:), Yeah but he used the same actor for different roles in Dr Strangeloveand in some scenes of Eyes Wide Shut he has Cruise on a treadmillagainst a blue screen using real photography of NYC behind him, thenin the next scene Cruise is filmed against a set in england. In a buddhist sutra, Sakyamuni, criticized the compulsive mental masturbators and referred to them as people "counting ganges sands." When we see the news article about dead Mandy, it says "Beauty Queen"but how did Bill know that was the same woman who ODd or helped him atthe orgy, since he never knew the real name of either? He didn't recognise her voice. No, she clearly says "sorry" to Zeigler when he says "you gave us a scare kiddo" and then Bill asks her, "How are you feeling now Mandy?" >>>>>>>>>>>> And if this firgure was Ziegler, why would he subsequentlysend a naked masked woman over to Bill for his benefit? Carolin Ruwe, in her book Symbols in Stanley Kubrick's Movie 'Eyes Wide Shut', argues that the mask is the prime symbol of the film. ANSWERS: 4. Ironically, that is just what power (and Ziegler)> would want you to believe - that the world of power and power elites> doesn't exist, is just all a charade anyway, that those who do> recognise the realities of social power and of desire are just> paranoid conspiracy nutters (when in fact it is those who> attribute all that occurs in the film to 'a dream' who are being> properly paranoid). > >>>>>> But which 'party' is Bill referring to? Being "all a Charade," doesn't mean it was all a dream. I am ready He treated her as a not-very-important> patient; no Mandys attend Bill's upmarket surgery.>, Apparently word of Bill's entry into the ceremony/orgy traveled fast.>, > How? : I like the Ninth Gate alot and have watched it numerous times but it's quite. In Eyes Wide Shut, Abigail Good plays a `Mysterious Woman'. My extra-fat dictionary yields the following: "rhi'zome, n. A rootlike stem under or along the ground,ordinarily in a horizontal position, which usually sends out roots fromfrom its lower surface and leafy shoots from its upper surface.". But which'party' is Bill referring to? Orgy? When we see the naked corpse's face from the overhead shot, at first it's hard to tell if it's really Mandy's face, because of the expression and the angle, her combed back hair etc. (meaning the Mysterious woman) "victor the woman lying dead at the morgue was the women at the party, well victor, maybe i'm missing something heyou call it a Charadetell me what kind of Charade ends up with someone dead.". --alt.flame Special Forces"All successful software gets changed." So, they joined Snctm because they heard it was the best of the best in the <<<<<<<<. Clearly, of course,the Somerton ritual is a mirror of Ziegler's party (with each event inmany ways serving as the 'truth' of the other): whether its Mandy atthe party or at the ritual or at both, the outcome is still the same:a corpse in a morgue. Does anyone else sense the inspiration of the mask designs from the film Eyes Wide Shut? He stares down at her but that'sit, and Kubrick tryied in vain to tlel his stories visually so itshould be considerd from a visual perspective. at the> ceremony/orgy. or psychotherapists. If we try to go too far in figuring out the film we are left with many mysteries. ), Stalepie writes:"the only dreams in the movie are the one that Alice tells to Billand then Bill "daydreams' (thinks about) her having sex with thatsailor. while walking down one of the NY streets, the background glowsbeautifucally. i'm sure he knew that aaudiences would be sophisticated enough toexamine the bodies as bill is doing in the morgue. ", "Victor what can I say. From his meeting with Ziegler in the poolroom, it appears that Bill> has been unclear about the identity of the woman in the morgue via-a-> vis Mandy and the masked woman. I found them both disappointing. Bill has not made any definitive connection at that stage betweenMandy and the masked woman, only - at most - between Mandy and theAmanda from the news report, both of them having suffered drugoverdoses. In contrast, why does the masked woman seeminglyalready know much more than they do? It is only when Ziegler responds> positively to Bill's question, "The woman at the party is the woman in> the morgue?" > He didn't recognise her voice. Is that how youwould describe it? at the > ceremony/orgy. That is what she was" implying that her deathis of no consequence because of the low-status manner in which Zieglerchooses to define her (an identity created and perpetuated by theZieglers of the world in the first place), earlier confirmed by hisdesire to get the drugged-out Mandy out of his bathroom and house("Can we put some clothes on her and get her out of here?" <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<. > Mandy was not the same woman. ", "They were nutcases. >Even in the morgue he still might not have> been positive, but he replays her voice in his head while looking over the> body. When he gets to Somerton, they are all wearing the same kind of costume--Nick only tells him, they are "costumed and masked." >In a big crowd of masked> people, Zeigler (his eyes give away who he is). Indeed, the film iscentrally concerned with the failure of a 'male-centric' andpatriarchal ideology to deal with female desire; and the narrativethrust of the film revolves around Bill's increasingly hopelessefforts to flee from (but also to copy and avenge) Alice's desire, adesire from which he is completely excluded, just as he is laterexcluded from the desire-space of the power-elite at Somerton. > that unless they are encoded in single frames for analysis will alwasy be > a mystery. On Feb 26, 3:27 pm, "Avoid normal situations. You're coming across as yet another FUCKING TROLL!! He obtains the secret password to a clandestine masked ball, where he has a seductive encounter with a beautiful stranger. Models at the party attended by the Royal Family. Related: Every Stanley Kubrick Movie Ranked, Worst To Best. > Take another listen. Of course, Bill didn't 'know' - at least, not in any objective orcrystal-clear empirical sense. --Napoleon. He treated her as a not-very-importantpatient; no Mandys attend Bill's upmarket surgery. Again, how is it 'clearly' the same voice? (and i'm sure that doesn't even begin to label them in full) They were nutcases. > Well thats all true, but of course that was SK making a masterpiece and > one of the most amazing films ever made IMO. You're coming across as yet another FUCKING TROLL!! This is the implication of Dream Storytoo - with the movie being quite faithful to the structure of the novella - though Kubrick obviously leaves this moment up to interpretation. Somerton could hardly be >> >>>>>> described (and>, >> certainly not by Bill) as a 'party.'<<<<<<<<<<<. And wouldn't he really feel more at home in amore errrrrrrrr Gnostic setting? I recognized the voice of the mysterious woman first time I saw the film. Bill is still even denying he knows what Zeigler is talking about till Zeigler says "I was there at the house. > Well I hope you see now that this is clear after reading the dialogue. -- Fred Brooks, I think I saw the "Rhizomatic" for sale on TV Late last night. Take another listen. and she >> replies, "Better," and then when Bill says, "you are a very lucky girl," >> Mandy says, "I know." for the morgue scene but it is still meant to be the same Mandy. Which all suggests that Ziegler didn't actually know> about Bill's presence at Somerton until he removed his mask > <<<<<<<<<<<<. The point, however, is that even if all three female'characters' are the same woman (and so, effectively, the samecharacter), this serves to set up even more contradictions, not tomention buying in to Ziegler's warped, patriarchal world. He could choose to call it many things, but 'party'? Tragically it was the director's final film with Kubrick dying less than a week after screening an incomplete cut for the studio and its stars. Put on some headphones and listen. 2. andpleading with her to take off her mask? But what he was getting at was whether it was > murder and a sacrifice for him, which makes him feel responsible, since it > would not have happened had he not been there. A part-time hobby soon blossomed into a career when he discovered he really loved writing about movies, TV and video games; he even (arguably) had a little bit of talent for it. The second half of Eyes Wide Shut sees Bill being given ominous warnings from this secret society, and he can't seem to find his mask from the party. Are we not acceptingZiegle'sr story here once again, and then retrospectivelyinterpellating and internalising it, re-interpreting all the earlierevents of the film in strict accordance with his frankly deeplysuspect account? "anachoronistic Deleuze and Guattari? >>>>>>>>>> And why should anyone acceptanything Ziegler says, someone who contemptibly dismisses this woman(or women) as "a hooker. How doesshe know this? > Sure, but they are half-whispered utterances from a woman in a> depressed, semi-conscious state after suffering a potentially lethal> drug overdose. As for Kelpzoid's rants on the topic - isn't there a RAW Illuminatusng out there somewhere? Perhaps itwould have worked better if there had been a photo in the newsarticle. To take Tess or Barry Lyndon in the same context is perhaps moreappropriate to various periods stylistically divergent from an intentor device for Picasso to depict women;- a later advancement thatneedn't further qualification than figures posed in gold, as was aliteral premium exacted upon proceeds, so written by one later model,over stipends derived from the estate. WebThe protagonists mask (Bill Harford, interpreted by Tom Cruise) is a Venetian mask that covers the entire face. Harry, you are calling him a troll for criticizing your manic, vain and pretentious word salad? He was wrestling with whether his buddy Zeigler and all those at the "party," were killers. :>released around the same time, The Ninth Gate. I enjoy the mystery entirely and will return to it over and over and could watch the film again and again. And why should anyone acceptanything Ziegler says, someone who contemptibly dismisses this woman(or women) as "a hooker. Somerton could hardly be> >>>>>> described (and>> certainly not by Bill) as a 'party. In a big crowd of masked people, Zeigler (his eyes give away who he is) on the balcony looking down at Bill, knows that it is him and nodded to him. > Even Sk was not perfect in that way-----or was hethere is another > mystery. I agree though, he hadnt made a defintiive connection yet. Same voice. ", > I'm sorry, but this has to be said: I'm pretty sure I know what you, > mean,> but the way you're saying it is silly. So is Ziegler lying? In the bathroom scene, there is no way to tell if Mandy has that freckle, because of her slouched position, which also makes it hard to tell her height in relation to Bill. > The vagueness is intentional, but I think it is clear that it was Mandy > all along, If it is vague, then how can it also be 'clear'? I think the voice would have rung a bell and the Newspaper story rang a bell, with the name Amanda, and of course seeing the corpse of someone who may have sacrificed her life for him--so he was in shock. >What else could he call it? At what point do we decide whether Corpse Mandy's very. Put on some headphones and listen. The lost of public phones booths will kill off Superman, Dr. Who, and Colin Farrell roles. WebThere are constant hints throughout the film of it being a story about one man's ego and insecurities. But then again when Superman puts on a pair of plain eyeglassesLois Lane, or anyone else fails to recognize him as Clark Kent! Weve got a beautiful feminine version of the lead mask that features a baroque pattern and crystal embellishments, as well as a feathered mask similar to the Somerton could hardly be described (andcertainly not by Bill) as a 'party.' It's profoundly, structurally, indeterminate >>> 1. so drugged out as to have been clearly incapable of making sense ofanything and 2. never actually spoke (just some unintelligiblemumbling),<<<. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.movies.kubrick/browse_frm/thread/16629c3d6011a459/705fb749859063b2?lnk=gst&q=treadmill#705fb749859063b2. And if this firgure was Ziegler, why would he subsequentlysend a naked masked woman over to Bill for his benefit? > Simply because we don't really know the extent of the "charade," from the > Illuminatii/Secret government etc, OR what SK really had in mind---to blow > our mind. He only ultimately accepts Ziegler's account because it> gives him a convenient alibi (as well as because of Ziegler's powerful> position - Bill is Ziegler's man, obeying his orders, subscribing to> the demands and realities of Ziegler's world). He's super modern too, so his favorite movies include Jaws, Die Hard, The Thing, Ghostbusters and Batman. > Similarly, when Bill reads the media report about an Amanda Curran> suffering a drug overdose in a hotel, why does he immediately make a> connection with his own recent experiences (and in a coffee shop/cafe> that set-wise is actually the very same building that earlier served> as Millich's Rainbow Fashions)? >> The vagueness is intentional, but I think it is clear that it was Mandy all> along. Statanic mass? Sakyamuni had taught that simpleminded people of even blind faith are way ahead of these blabbering, eliteist, arrogant intellectuals. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<, ME> You can identify Pollack's eyes and chin quite easily in the close ups.>. We could say that even Nick was in on it and the phone call to Nick in the Jazz club was a set up to pique Bill's interest, even letting Bill knows the password. It's not like he is going to voice all his thoughts. WebBrowse a wide selection of eyes wide shut mask women and face coverings available in various fabrics and configurations, made by a community of small business-owners. This may indeed be the case, but within the diagetic space of the filmitself, there is absolutely no indication - other than Ziegler'sdubious contention - that Mandy is also the masked woman at Somerton.There could even have been two deaths. Bill is ushered to a crowded room and unmasked by the master of ceremonies. '<<<<<<<<<<< I think it is clear he was > referring to the Somerton party. In contrast to the Ziegler-Bill poolroom scene clearing up allambiguities (Ziegler's seeming 'commonsensical' and desublimating'explanation' of the Somerton ritual), as many have complained in thepast, this scene instead multiplies and amplifies the uncertainties.Ziegler in this scene, as in earlier ones, seams to be simultaneouslysaying two contradictory things - a deadlock of entrapment: he triesto completely shut down the question surrounding the extent to whichthe whole Somerton ritual was 'merely' a theatrical 'charade' byinsisting - to Bill - that it was precisely nothing more than a merecharade, a mere trivial irrelevance. What else could he call it? And you bring up anachoronistic Deleuze and Guattari? There's also search enginessuch as Google where you can search for information. But he still wasn't sure after reading the news story, or even aftervisiting the morgue, as his disbelief at Ziegler's explanationindicated. Again, how is it 'clearly' the same voice? [Some irrelevant pseudo-Buddhist gibberish snipped]. Bill in that scene was simply behaving as a (not very) professionaldoctor; and he seemed just as concerned about Ziegler's anxiety thanabout Mandy's actual wellbeing. > So if instead, he replayed Alice's voice (or Ziegler's voice) this> would 'prove' that the body was that of Alice (or Ziegler)? Perhaps it> would have worked better if there had been a photo in the news> article. The poolroom scene is an amazing piece of extreme understatement, while at the same time, being simplke and concrete. Nevertheless, those two recollections(one of a fantasy, one of a dream) constitute the very desire whoseexclusion (from the quotidian, commonsensical, 'social reality' of theHarfords' marriage) the film is exploring. The masks worn in the Eyes Wide Shut orgy scene are from Venetian carnivals; a reputation of civil disorder, moral debauchery and ritualized eroticism. He has written words for Den of Geek, Collider, The Irish Times and Screen Rant over the years, and can discuss anything from the MCU - where Hawkeye is clearly the best character - to the most obscure cult b-movie gem, and his hot takes often require heat resistant gloves to handle. It is only when Ziegler respondspositively to Bill's question, "The woman at the party is the woman inthe morgue?" at the ceremony/orgy. Alot was going on, he had to figure it out. It iscertainly distinctly possible that the woman at the party is otherthan the woman at the Somerton ritual, though the former does appearto be the Mandy that ends up in the morgue (she never made it to'rehab', as Dr Bill had suggested but never bothered following up,just later shunted home by Ziegler's heavies); remember, we only haveZiegler's explanation/confirmation that they are the same 'Mandy',hardly a reliable witness given his contradictory assertionsthroughout the film. <<<<<<<<<<. Before warning him, the "you are going to need some rehab," she says, >> "I know.">. SoZiegler's principal role in the film and in this scene is as anunscrupulous defender of wealth and power and as a power-brokerintermediary (laying down the Law while also routinely transgressingit), threateningly indicating to Bill just what the rich and powerfulcan do and what they can get away with. The first several times I saw the film I though what the op thought. Poor pitiful morons that we all are -thank Bog he's put off Nirvana for so long. When Bill thinks hes just about to score his own sexual liaison, his charade is exposed. One of the most fascinating feature films ever made, the revered auteurs final effort is notorious in every sense of the word. So maybe they were all wearing walkie talkies under those masks, what do you want me to say..no, this IS left as a huge mystery. That is what she was" implying that her deathis of no consequence because of the low-status manner in which Zieglerchooses to define her (an identity created and perpetuated by theZieglers of the world in the first place), earlier confirmed by hisdesire to get the drugged-out Mandy out of his bathroom and house("Can we put some clothes on her and get her out of here?" People and Masks: The Meaning of Eyes Wide Shut. WebBrowse a wide selection of eyes wide shut mask woman and face coverings available in various fabrics and configurations, made by a community of small business-owners. I'm sorry, but this has to be said: I'm pretty sure I know what you mean, but the way you're saying it is silly. Whereas atSomerton, Ziegler and the others only first become suspicious of Billas an interloper because of how he arrived there (in a taxi ratherthan a limousine). The rhizomatic uncertainties anduncanny inconsistencies multiply And it is not immediately clearwhether Bill connects this Amanda to the masked woman at Somerton orto the overdosed Mandy in Ziegler's bathroom. Isn't that - again - amazing; except that you're not even unfortunateenough to have a mindless head, given the large quantities ofbubblewrap - and nothing else - between your ears take care, MrKelpless. It is odd that Bill would remember his patient he hadn't seen in at least a year, owned "Rainbow Fashions?" The (unnamed) woman in the mask who warns Doctor Cruise is the same woman who ends up dead in the morgue. Rather, he> is beginning to SUSPECT that the body might be that of the masked> woman, a suspician that leads him to look long and hard at her up> close in the morgue. Desire is always Other. And of course how did the mask get on his pillow? Much of what we have seen is Bill's non-verbal reactions to > all this, which is full of shock and bewilderment. >>>>>>>>> And even if it was clear, even if he had> referred directly to the events of the night before as the (Somerton)> party, it would still be uncertain, because>> 1. The 'mystery' is how SHE knows that he is an interloper. Is that how > you> would describe it? Bill is still even denying he knows what Zeigler > is talking about till Zeigler says "I was there at the house. Again, is this not another case of'fantasmatic inflation', of imagining this figure to be Ziegler simplybecause of what we subsequently learn about him in the poolroom scene?And why should it matter WHO this figure is, beyond being a member ofthe power elite? reinforced bythe simple observation that you have never actually posted here before[at least under your supplied handle/ID]. He wasn't positive. Superman movies must keep him in the pre 80s, or he needsto do some serious upgrading. One intriguing reading of the Eyes Wide Shut mask being on the pillow is that it's only in Bill's head as if he's exhausted by trying to hide his attempts at infidelity or true feelings from Alice, leading to an emotional breakdown. >Bill was not yet sure it was Mandy from the bathroom, till he happened to >see the news story and saw the name "Amanda," then it started to come >together. I like the Ninth Gate alot and have watched it numerous times but it's quite a few notches below EWS. The point, however, is that even if all three female'characters' are the same woman (and so, effectively, the samecharacter), this serves to set up even more contradictions, not tomention buying in to Ziegler's warped, patriarchal world."<<<<<<<<<<. 'S non-verbal reactions to > all this, which is full of shock and bewilderment though what op. Is full of shock and bewilderment search enginessuch as Google where you can search for information going voice! Your supplied handle/ID ] word salad 's quite times but it 's quite a few notches EWS! Non-Verbal reactions to > all this, which is full of shock and bewilderment owned `` Fashions! His own sexual liaison, his Charade is exposed people, Zeigler ( his Eyes give away who is! When Bill thinks hes just about to score his own sexual liaison, Charade... No Mandys attend Bill 's upmarket surgery be the same Mandy of even blind are! Are calling him a TROLL for criticizing your manic, vain and pretentious word salad by... 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